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Solving Stonehenge Debate
by Simon at 23:18 02/10/10 (Blogs::Simon)
Some interesting points arose from tonight's debate between Tim Darvill, Mike Parker Pearson, Mike Pitts and Julian Richards which was chaired by Andrew Lawson and hosted as part of Salisbury Museum's 150th Anniversary Conference.

I'll mention a few here, and if you want to hear the whole hour long thing I've a (poor quality) audio recording of it.

(Facebook folks click 'View original post' to continue)

Most importantly, I think it's worth saying that there are no hard and fast answers to be had here, but in terms of informed discussion this is as up to date info as you can get.

1) Aubrey Holes - bluestones or wooden posts - the opinion is still split. Mike Parker Pearson believes the bluestones arrived soon after 3000BC and were erected in the Aubrey Holes. Tim Darvill points out that AH7 held no bluestone chips, yet the Q&R holes (hitherto believed to be the earliest bluestone setting) did. Mike Pitts cites Hawley's original records of his early 20th C. excavation of the Aubrey Holes as indicating that they were stone holes and also mentions the Boscombe "Timber" Circle which is on the same scale as the Aubrey Hole circle and is now thought may have held stones. Julian Richards isn't convinced that the AH7 excavation indicates a stone hole - after all this particular hole has been excavated at least 3 times. All agree that an excavation of an untouched Aubrey Hole is needed.

2) MPP says we'll have a radiocarbon date as to when the bluestones were removed from West Amesbury Henge (discovered on the banks of the Avon in 2009) by Xmas 2010.

3) He goes on to say that possible additional bluestone quarry sites have been identified (Carn Goedog, Rhos y Felin(?)), perhaps associated with neolithic settlement activity.

4) "The Boy with the Amber Necklace" - the one in the news this week - is almost certainly NOT from the Mediterranean, despite what the press have reported.

MPP explains the misunderstanding starting at 26:35 in the audio. At first glance by the British Geological Survey the oxygen isotope value compared closely with those of the Med. area, but the press release was prepared before the Beaker Isotope Project had reviewed the data, when it was found that this individual sits right in the middle of the Wessex Group. He's from Wessex.

5) There are an increasing number of solstitial-aligned monuments being found. Clive Ruggles has identified 8, and the Birmingham University project's discovery over the summer of the 'henge' under G51 makes nine. In passing, MPP suggests that G51 may be a robbed out stone circle mentioning the quantities of rhyolite found just to the east of it.

6) TD says that Stonehenge is one of a number of 'centres' at 25-30 mile distances from the south coast to the Orkneys, some smaller, other more significant with the Stonehenge 'centre' being exceptional both in terms of its size and longevity of use.

7) There's general agreement that Grooved Ware (or its regional equivalent) is strongly associated with the earliest phases of this type of ceremonial monument - the earthworks and Aubrey Hole circle, in Stonehenge's case.

8) MPP says the chronological construction sequence of the Southern Circle in Durrington Walls (looking back to Wainwright's archive together with new radiocarbon dating of antler picks from the original excavation) indicates the early large postholes date from 2900-2600BC and the whole structure has the same timespan of use as Stonehenge itself. He suggests that at the very centre there may have been a single wooden trilithon aligned on the midwinter solstice sunrise and that it cuts into an even earlier circle.

9) D-shaped buildings may be a new style of neolithic structure that we've not paid enough attention to before. Upper Ninepiece (Powys), the Ness of Brodgar (Orkney) and Durrington Walls all have these structures - and the one at Durrington Walls is a horseshoe structure right at the centre of the Southern Circle.

10) Q. Was Stonehenge/Woodhenge/Southern Circle @ DW ever roofed? No. There's no evidence of eaves drip erosion or of regular, indoor, floor.

11) On the question of whether Stonehenge was ever 'finished', TD feels it was more of a continuous evolution. The Romans messed about with Stonehenge to a greater extent that we'd realised. They dug down alongside existing stones, perhaps created a temple, and antiquarian records talk of 'curse tablets' being found. MPP expands on this topic and mentions Stone 11 - the half-height sarsen in the sarsen circle that's too short to support a lintel. It's not dressed like the other sarsens, so was it added later? MP thinks that 'finished' really means the completion of the sarsen structure around 2500BC and points out that the attempts by people to 'out-do' their forebears in embellishing Stonehenge stops around this time.

12) Finally, Julian Richards asks the others what they think they'd see if they were at Stonehenge in midwinter 2400BC. Tim Darvill reckons lots of people, probably psyched up, certainly inebriated, some of whom have come very long distances, performing special ceremonies and expecting the deity of Stonehenge to be there to commune with them.

No change there then :-)

Mail me if you want the audio.
--
simon

<< Once every 19 years, there's a... I love LIDAR and PTM >>
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Solving Stonehenge Debate Simon - 23:18 02/10/10
Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Steve - 03:02 03/10/10
Hmm... OK but it doesn't answer the key question for me. Was Stonehenge built by aliens?

(And I don't mean the French.)

I mean, what was it for and how did they get the big lintels up there? And where did the stone actually come from. An authority no less than Eddie Izzard asserts they were dragged from Wales over a period of years. Is that right?

I mean, all the discussion of Aubrey Holes is good but the rest of us really want the bigger picture - aliens and stuff. And who was the diety of Stonehenge?

I should clarify a vested point of interest here incidentally. I'm all for the establishment of a Lord Summerisle style community in England complete with copulating couples in disused churchyards and nekkid ladies jumping over flames. Present religion has become somewhat jaded compared to what is offered on C5 most nights so I think a spiritual revival is called for even if it annoys the Pope and that other bloke in Canterbury. And, I mean, Lord Summerisle had some pretty good ideas didn't he? And I liked his dress sense.

Sorry, I need to finish now. There's a couple of blokes waiting outside to take me back to the clinic.

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stevepa

Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Simon - 21:30 03/10/10
Lintels: wooden scaffolding. Lever up one end of stone. Put tree trunk under it crossways. Do the same at other end. Repeat with additional tree trunks until stone on a platform or tree trunks. Start again this time standing on the platform you've just built under the stone. Sounds counter-intuitive, but there's a very good diagram somewhere that I can't find right now.

Stone: bluestones (4-6 tonne stones) from Preseli in Welsh Wales, 2950BC; sarsens (10-50 tonne stones) from Marlborough Downs about 25 miles north of Stonehenge, 2500BC.

No aliens, sorry. Lots of copulating at summer solstice though, in the bonking area of the field.
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simon

- Deleted User Account - 23:31 03/10/10
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Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Steve - 05:32 04/10/10
Ah, thanks for the explanation of the lintels.

But why the bluestones from Wales? And how did anybody think to go look for them there in 2950BC, even less decide to drag them to Stonehenge? I don't understand!!

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stevepa

Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Simon - 07:29 04/10/10
That is the $64,000 question. Why those stones, and why that ultimate location?

My feeling is that this was a transplantation of people from Wales to Wessex who brought their local land with them (kind of like Dracula needing the earth of Transylvania in his coffin).

The southwest walians recreated their original landscape's sacred power 150 miles away in Stonehenge by arranging the bluestones in the same relative positions as the outcrops from which they had been quarried.

As to why the people made the move in the first place, and why Wessex was the destination.... if I could answer that (without being laughed at) I would :-)
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simon

Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Bruce Ure - 10:58 04/10/10
> Why those stones, and why that ultimate location?

I think I can shed some light. The most likely explanation is wife-based:

"You're not leaving those there! Get rid of them NOW!"

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Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Steve - 18:18 04/10/10
Did Lana make you toss your balls out?

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stevepa

Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Bruce Ure - 19:10 04/10/10
She does, but then so does chatroulette, and also I have some films with young ladies with horses.

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Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Steve - 18:17 04/10/10
Ah, that makes sense. Maybe one of the tribe went a-wandering in Wessex and happened upon this land where everything just seemed to be "right" from his point of view? Ley-lines, position of the sun, stars, etc. Overjoyed he returned back to the tribe and convinced them to migrate to Wessex and establish themselves there. A bit like Exodus, I suppose.

I'd be surprised if somebody hadn't already written some sort of sci-fi or fantasy novel based around this. But then other than a few rare exceptions I don't read sci-fi or fantasy. (I just act them out in bed).

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stevepa

Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Simon - 18:34 04/10/10
Given that the natural peri-glacial stripes discovered a couple of years ago run exactly along the midsummer/midwinter solstice axis that goes through Stonehenge (ie up the Avenue to the monument). I do wonder whether some passing person around 9000BC noticed that the winter sun set in line with these obvious landscape markers and thought to themselves:

"Hmm - this must be a special place"
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simon

Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Dominic Search - 03:07 03/10/10
Thanks for posting... sounds like it was an interesting debate.

Any mention of Venus alignments in those other 'centres' (as per the Lomas / Knight theory of ancient time keeping)?

Oh, and I take it you know Druidry is to be classed as religion for tax purposes... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11457795 ;-)

Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Simon - 21:33 03/10/10
No 'out there' theories allowed in such a forum, and no politics either. Strictly the facts (as we know them, or think we know them).

The Druid Network (a website community, essentially) is now a registered religious charity, but this doesn't actually mean druidry itself is formally recognised. Or so I'm reliably informed.

There are plenty of people who can't tell the difference between a religion and a church, sadly.
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simon

- Deleted User Account - 04:39 03/10/10
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Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Simon - 21:33 03/10/10
I'm banking on the total lunar eclipse at dawn on 21st Dec this year, actually :-)
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simon
- Deleted User Account - 23:35 03/10/10
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Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Simon - 07:22 04/10/10
I'm trying to engineer a druidic/pagan calendar reform for this, because traditionally the open access would be held at dawn on the day of solstice, and since pagan days start at sunset and the instant of solstice is 23:38 on the 21st that means it'd be the 'day' of the 22nd Dec (Gregorian).

Obviously this is a day late to view the lunar eclipse (which is at dawn on the 21st).

Arthur's going to bring this up at the Round Table meeting this week to see if the druids fancy asking EH for the open access to be held on the 21st (Gregorian) instead.

I'll keep you posted :-)
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simon

Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Gordon Joly - 08:38 03/10/10

Thanks for the summary.

I also heard on Radio 4 this morning the Charities Commission has allowed charities to register as religiously based with druidism as their faith. What next? Jedi?

Gordo

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Gordon Joly
gordon.joly@pobox.com

Re: Solving Stonehenge Debate Simon - 21:36 03/10/10
Yup, floodgates open now. I'm an Osirian, doncha know, so can I have my tax break now?
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sa Re (akh n 3sir)| di ankh mi Re n djet n heh