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Couple of comments
by Simon at 20:08 27/05/04 (Forum::Online Communities)
The problem is that although our analysis has shown that the discussions offered considerable potential for reducing the democratic deficit in terms of the nature of the discourse, they are not used in any way. Thus, while the discussions 'help fuel the debate' and bring citizens closer to each other, they do not bring 'the European Union closer to its citizens and reduce the perception of a democratic deficit'

On the *nose* - exactly! From the extracts quoted, what seemed to be missing from the debate was anyone able to state either what the EU's agreed policy was (authoritatively) on the subject of the ideas proposed by Fettes or to offer, from the perspective of someone intimately engaged at the political level, an idea of what the various currents of thought might be.

It appears that certain sections of the EU citizenry may be capable of drawing together to discuss politely, even in debates where such a potentially explosive statement as

German as European working language would be an additional victory from Hitler and therefore has to be refused.

is made.

You may want to reference Godwin's Law in relation to the mention of Hitler in the thread started by Fettes on the Europa website. Interestingly, this particular thread seems to violate the Law - which is encouraging, I think.

Fettes apologises for his translation software, which raises an interesting point about machine-translation.

In Vernor Vinge's novel "A Fire Upon the Deep", a galactic communications network relays messages from civilisation to civilisation, using machine translation of language along the way. Anticipating the problems with the automated translations, the extracts of the 'newsgroup messages' included in the book have additional 'headers' which try to convey the degradation in meaning that has occurred as a result. Here is an example:

Crypto: 0
As received by: Transceiver Relay03 at Relay
Language path: Firetongue -> Cloudmark -> Triskweline, SjK units [Firetongue and Cloudmark are High Beyond trade languages. Only core meaning is rendered by this translation.]
... etc

Later, this point is made more explicitly:

And some messages were patent nonsense. One thing about the Net; the multiple, automatic translations often disguised the fundamental alienness of participants. Behind the chatty, colloquial postings, there were faraway realms, so misted by distance and difference that communication was impossible - even though it might take a while to realize the fact. For instance:

Crypto: 0
As received by: OOB shipboard ad hoc
Language path: Arbwyth -> Trade 24 -> Cherguelen -> Triskweline, SjK units
From: Twirlip of the Mists
Key phrases: Hexapodia as the key insight
Text of message:
... is it true Humans have six legs? If these Humans have three pairs of legs, then I think there is an easy explanation for -

Hexapodia: Six legs? Three pairs of legs? Probably none of these translations was close to what the bewildered creature of Twirlip had in its mind. Ravna didn't read any more of that posting.

I guess the key evolutionary selection pressure for any truly global online community members is going to be an ability to communicate concepts in spite of the limitations of machine, and any natural, language translation capabilities.

A "language-independent" representation of communicable concepts would be a very handy tool to have (the alleged downsides of a "babelfish" notwithstanding).
--
simon

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Hi scott wright - 19/05
    Re: Hi There is an attachment here Simon - 19/05
       Re: Hi scott wright - 19/05
          Re: Hi Simon - 20/05
             Re: Hi scott wright - 24/05
                Being in and of a community Hugo van der Sanden - 25/05
                   Re: Being in and of a communit... scott wright - 25/05
                   Re: Being in and of a communit... scott wright - 25/05
                      Questionnaire Simon - 25/05
                         Re: Questionnaire scott wright - 25/05
                            Re: Questionnaire Simon - 25/05
                               Re: Questionnaire scott wright - 27/05
                                  Email addresses Simon - 27/05
                                     Re: Email addresses scott wright - 27/05
                                        Re: Email addresses Simon - 28/05
                         Re: Questionnaire Joanna Robson - 9/06
                            Re: Questionnaire Simon - 11/06
                      Re: Being in and of a communit... scott wright - 30/09
                Moderation (and paging Mr Crow... Simon - 25/05
                   Re: Moderation (and paging Mr ... scott wright - 25/05
                      Re: Moderation (and paging Mr ... Susie Hughes - 25/05
                      Points for the e-envoy office Simon - 25/05
                         Re: Points for the e-envoy off... scott wright - 27/05
                            Word attachments Simon - 27/05
                               Re: Word attachments There is an attachment here scott wright - 27/05
                                  Couple of comments Simon - 27/05
                                     Re: Couple of comments scott wright - 28/05
                                        Go to where the conversation i... Simon - 28/05
                                     Re: Couple of comments There is an attachment here Hugo van der Sanden - 28/05
                                        Re: Couple of comments Simon - 28/05
                                           History of Computers scott wright - 24/06
                                              Re: History of Computers David Crowson - 24/06
                                              Re: History of Computers Simon - 24/06
                                                 ...and the disadvantage, of co... Simon - 24/06
                                                    Re: ...and the disadvantage, o... scott wright - 25/06
                                                       Is that this one? Simon - 25/06
                                                          Re: Is that this one? scott wright - 5/07
                                                 Re: History of Computers scott wright - 25/06
                                                    Hmmm Simon - 25/06
                                                       Re: Hmmm scott wright - 5/07
                                  Moderating Censorship There is an attachment here scott wright - 22/03
                                     Re: Moderating Censorship Simon - 22/03
                                        Re: Moderating Censorship scott wright - 22/03
                                           Re: Moderating Censorship Simon - 23/03
                                              Re: Moderating Censorship scott wright - 23/03
                                                 Re: Moderating Censorship Simon - 23/03
                            Re: Points for the e-envoy off... Simon - 27/05
                      Re: Moderation (and paging Mr ... Susie Hughes - 26/05
                         Re: Moderation (and paging Mr ... scott wright - 27/05
                   Re: Moderation (and paging Mr ... David Crowson - 26/05
                      Re: Moderation (and paging Mr ... David Crowson - 26/05
                         Globalisation... Simon - 27/05
                            Re: Globalisation... David Crowson - 27/05
                               Erk! Simon - 27/05
                                  Re: Erk! David Crowson - 27/05
                                     Re: Erk! David Crowson - 27/05
                                        Disquiet about this in the pas... Simon - 27/05
             Re: Hi scott wright - 16/08
                Re: Hi Simon - 17/08
                   Re: Hi There is an attachment here scott wright - 21/09
                      Houston Simon - 21/09
                         journal access scott wright - 12/10
                            Re: journal access Simon - 12/10